tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3101913167226700484.post5232265270751769907..comments2023-11-03T12:03:01.691-07:00Comments on Surprised by Time: Andronikos PalaiologosNauplionhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10598950480737808706noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3101913167226700484.post-59702616734613742292013-11-07T13:13:12.888-08:002013-11-07T13:13:12.888-08:00Loved reading about the details about the crowning...Loved reading about the details about the crowning ceremonies, what the different crown details were like for sons and for relatives, the colour and detail of the clothes and what was said in the ceremonies. You bring people right into the court itself and show them everything. Great article, by a great writer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3101913167226700484.post-22209732215009730242010-06-24T14:27:40.414-07:002010-06-24T14:27:40.414-07:00The source may be in one of these, given in a diff...The source may be in one of these, given in a different page:<br /><br />1. Σ. Π. Λάμπρου, «Κυριακός ο Αγκωνίτης εν τη Λακωνική», Νέος Ελληνομνήμων, τόμ. Ε΄, σελ 422. Ο Κυριακός νόμισε ότι ανακάλυψε την αρχαία Πύλο και έτσι ονομάζει το Οίτυλο, όμως είναι βεβαιωμένο ότι ήταν στο Οίτυλο, όπου ανακάλυψε και κατέγραψε επιγραφή αναφερομένη, από τους Οιτυλιώτες προς τον αυτοκράτορα Γορδιανό. Εκεί φιλοξενήθηκε από τον διοικητή Οιτύλου και Μεθώνης τον Ιωάννη Παλαιολόγο γύρω στα 1447. Μεγ. Ελλ. Εγκ., τόμ. ΙΘ΄, σελ, 427, «Ιωάννης Παλαιολόγος». Άννας Αβραμέα, «Ιστορικές μαρτυρίες από το Οίτυλο της Μάνης», Λακωνικαί Σπουδαί, τόμ. Ζ΄, σελ. 7, Αθήναι 1983.<br /><br />There may be some more info about this John P. there.<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />PavlosAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3101913167226700484.post-23720376755129890162010-06-24T13:49:30.089-07:002010-06-24T13:49:30.089-07:00Well, he gives no sources so it is useless. I wou...Well, he gives no sources so it is useless. I would need a Byzantine source that says this, but it would be meaningless if it did, as that land was under Venetian control until the Ottomans of 1500.Nauplionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10598950480737808706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3101913167226700484.post-86282208404035279242010-06-24T13:35:42.905-07:002010-06-24T13:35:42.905-07:00This site http://www.mani.org.gr/medikoi/bviz/oit_...This site http://www.mani.org.gr/medikoi/bviz/oit_bviz_per.htm<br />says John P. was not only commander of Vitylo but also titular lord of Methone. It is based on the book of Μιχάλης Γρηγ. Μπατσινίλας «ΟΙ ΜΕΔΙΚΟΙ ΤΗΣ ΕΛΛΑΔΑΣ ΓΙΑΤΡΙΑΝΟΙ ΤΟΥ ΟΙΤΥΛΟΥ ΜΑΝΗΣ ΚΑΙ Η ΜΕΓΑΛΗ ΓΙΟΡΤΗ» Αθήνα 1999.<br />I have no idea what his source is but if it is credible then it is interesting. Methone is farther from Vitylo than Corone, so he would be have been titular lord of that whole Venetian "finger" of the Morea and that would have included Navarino.<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />PavlosAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3101913167226700484.post-75342354838875068902010-06-24T10:43:03.701-07:002010-06-24T10:43:03.701-07:00Cyriaco believed that Vitylo was the Homeric Pylos...Cyriaco believed that Vitylo was the Homeric Pylos and birthplace of Nestor. How many others shared this view may be impossible to find out. A lot depends on your source for the governorship of Navarino. If the original refers to Pylos you may have got your man. If it says Zonchio or Navarino then it is wrong and John may have not even existed.<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />PavlosAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3101913167226700484.post-70214274637643984572010-06-23T13:55:17.889-07:002010-06-23T13:55:17.889-07:00None of the sources on Andronikos mention marriage...None of the sources on Andronikos mention marriage. I know nothing about Vitylo & in the review you mention I was paraphrasing the translation. But it is a terrific idea & bears further exploration.Nauplionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10598950480737808706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3101913167226700484.post-84487962723653293112010-06-23T12:37:22.178-07:002010-06-23T12:37:22.178-07:00Was John legitimate? I have not heard of a wife of...Was John legitimate? I have not heard of a wife of Andronikos. If so, would John's relation with the family not have been a subtle matter?<br />Anyway, some years ago you wrote:<br />"A more difficult transcription comes on 320-321 where Dryea (near Tainaron) is given as "Dry." While there is a village immediately inland at Tainaron called Δρυ, given Cyriac's route by boat from Corone to "Messanian Pylos" (Oitilo, Cyriac's "Bitylon") to Tainaron, Dryea must be Dryo, also known as Pyrgos-Dryo and Pirgos-Dirou." <br />http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2004/2004-07-69.html<br /><br />Did you mean that Vitylo was also known as Pylos, which is the ancient name of Navarino?<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />PavlosAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3101913167226700484.post-2468214168627962642010-06-23T08:41:15.742-07:002010-06-23T08:41:15.742-07:00I quite agree with you about leprosy. I saw a gre...I quite agree with you about leprosy. I saw a great deal of it where I grew up (where I had chronic malaria). I am not happy with this diagnosis, which is why I was going with gout earlier. None of the sources is contemporary with Andronikos, but they are what we have to work with. What is interesting is that the Venetian sources never mention any disease at all. As far as the John P. Cyriaco met -- who knows? The naming [for the father's father] is right, but I would have expected Cyriaco to have told us at least that this was his friend Constantine's nephew.Nauplionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10598950480737808706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3101913167226700484.post-512190241345296822010-06-23T05:21:26.922-07:002010-06-23T05:21:26.922-07:00The causes of death of members of the imperial fam...The causes of death of members of the imperial family are vague even when it was something like childbirth complications. Unless someone died during a plague epidemic we face a web of secrecy, ignorance and speculation. I would not put much faith on what chroniclers wrote about Andronikos' health. The only thing certain is he had something quite bad.<br /><br />Leprosy is difficult to transmit, therefore it was mainly endemic, localised within family units or villages. I think the chances of a despot contracting it are quite remote. I would put my money on malaria instead. Deaths from malaria accounted for almost half of the British casualties at the Thessalonica front in WW I. The area around it is the only part of Greece with cases of sickle cell anaemia, an African mutation resistant to malaria that spread through positive selection in affected regions. Malaria symptoms include convulsions and coma, and children under 10 - Andronikos was 8 when he went to Thessalonica - are particularly vulnerable.<br /><br />Andronikos' son could not have been put in charge of Navarino. The Venetians occupied it in 1417 and officially purchased it from Centurione Zaccaria in 1423. When Thomas Palaiologos sought refuge there in 1460 both provveditors of Coron and Modon rushed to offer him ships and get rid of him. It may have been nearby Arcadia but that belonged to Thomas, he had inherited it from Zaccaria in 1432. He later swapped a lot of castles with Constantine but I don't know about Arcadia. In any case Cyriaco met a John Palaiologos in 1447, archon of Vitylo (Itylon) in Mani. Could it be him?<br /><br />Diana, an oversight for which I am to blame having driven you mad with Strophades: naval battle of Echinades + Strophades = Sporades.<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />PavlosAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com